RCA cable subjective comparison

[BusinessEvolution]

Possibly there is a double post, but I can't see the other post. Sorry if this is posted twice

Setup
ASUS Essence STX>Talisman T33H>MS-PRO

RCA cables
5 year old 1.5 metre VCR cables estimated value $0.50
New 3m* good quality $25 cables
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/200724727613 ... 1439.l2649
*I ordered 1.5metre cables but they sent 3m cables :O

Music: Metal to classical, and Flac to MP3 (320kbps to 128kbps)

Hypothesis: No noticeable difference.

The new RCA cables I had ordered had not yet arrived so for 20 hours I had to use bodgy cheap VCR RCA cables to connect my STX to the T33H. The sound coming out of my setup was very very good, which lead me to wonder if the cables will actually make any difference at all. With a speaker setup it has been shown in a blind test a layman would have extreme difficult telling the difference between $450 RCA cables and coat hangers.

There are measurable differences between the lowest end cables and decent cables, however like with the Beyerdynamic DT880 and T1 (where the T1 has 3 times the measurable distortion) this is outside the range that we can actually hear, most people will tell you the T1 sounds better.

Before switching cables, I played through 15 songs that were randomly selected from random genres, metal, rock, to classical and went through the same play list again with the different cables.

Results:
I'm not an expert or a pro, however I did notice a slight improvement. Maybe a slight increase in bass response and impact, small increase in detail in the higher end. It does feel like the music has a bit more punch. The highs were slightly more round/detailed compared to before on one Daft Punk track, where I thought they were bordering on being shrill before. This wasn't a double blind test either, hence the title of the post.

Conclusion:
In terms of quality of construction, the $25 dollar cables are worlds apart from the cheap cables. In terms of actual sound quality, I think there is a noticable slight improvement. If I was paying just for the increase in sound quality and not the increase in quality of construction, I think the $25 is only borderline worth it. Overall I am happy, though for sound quality alone probably good $5-10 rca cables will achieve the same result. I can't imagine a worthwhile improvement with the uber expensive cables that we have been joking about ($125-$2k). I think those cables have a place in recording studios but not so much in home sound setups. That being said, it is a function of how good your setup actually is, I'd say the cables shouldn't cost more than 1% of your setup cost.

What are your thoughts? If anyone actually reads this stuff lol.


Limitations:
My talisman T33H amp only has about >20 hours of burn in, when its recommended for 60hours of burn in (from Talisman site), though they also recommend an hour to let the amp warm up, I noticed a big difference after 30 minutes but nothing really noticeable after that.
The new cables had no pre burn in, (lol), some claim cables need burn in too, though I think this is entirely a case of 'brain in', I can't see any evidence for cables needing long burn in times, I could be wrong though.
The new RCA cables connectors fit a little too securely, they were a little difficult getting on, and probably a pain in the ass if plugging/unplugging them often.

[bioxeed]

Up to a certain point the manufacturing is going to improve enough that it'd be worth it. Also they'll be thicker/sturdier and be able to take more punishment by things rolling over/dropping on/chewing on them. Decent quality cables at music/pro audio shops are usually around the $20 mark for 3m depending on the connector and around $35~ish for 10m ones. Don't really need any better than those.

[dion]

What are your thoughts? If anyone actually reads this stuff lol.

I think there wouldn't be any actual difference and the one you are hearing is due to cognitive bias.

Beyond a cable that is actually damaged or severely out of spec, I don't believe it's audible.

I do get plenty of faults due to CCTV coax that has been poorly terminated or the cable or connector has failed over time also had a few due to severe corossion or bad joins. That usually appears as the video signal dropping out completely, however it can appear just as interference and produce some odd waveforms on the test monitor. Distance also can be an issue and that is measurable, as an example a 300m length of RG174 coax that is for short runs produces more of a round than square wave sync due purely to attenuation on such a long run. That's not so much of an issue on short patch leads/interconnects.

To confirm you would have to do some sort of blind test at least.

Personally it's mainly just down to aesthetics and as bioxeed said, they may be more durable and also maybe easier to work with/more pliable, don't tangle as easily or kink etc.

The cables I install in fixed installations, data both copper and fiber, security, access control, PA, MATV. You can actually tell the difference in quality, but that is more that they are easier to install, doesn't kink, doesn't get stuck on the drum or in the box, easy to run, easy to strip, easier to terminate. Some data you will see differences, outright dodgy brands will not pass certification at significant distance but that's data not audio.

It's up to the end user ultimately, personally I go for mechanical strength and 'workability' at a reasonable price

[Marcus]

The only time I've heard a 100% poinpointable audible difference was going from a low quality unshielded RCA to one that was decent quality and shielded. The difference was less hiss/interference from whatever-it-was, including a disappearing buzz etc.

Greater silkyness to female vocals and more blue flavoured synergistic enhancements were not experienced.

[BusinessEvolution]

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2008/03/audio ... _hanger-2/

That's an interesting article, with speakers people couldn't tell the difference between monster cables ($450), vs Coat hangers ($1)


I failed the last two single blind tests we tried. (need at least three people for double blind, unless you have an automated process)

CD vs WMP 320kbps MP3 vs EAC 320kbps MP3

I was able to pick the CD (69% first CD, 60% second CD) but not any difference between the WMP MP3 and the EAC MP3 with that setting. I had assumed that the MP3 rips with EAC sounded better, depending on settings it will (might) just not that setting. I also knew the tracks off the first CD pretty well as I have listened to it about 100 times.

It was interesting with the first CD as I had rips I had done, and rips from the internet. There was a big difference between CD quality and the interweb rips I had, but a pretty small difference between the rips I had done.

Background cable noise cheap cables vs premium cables

I failed this one too, I thought that the premium cables were cutting out noise but I couldn't tell the difference for noise/buzz only.

[theeyealtering]

"Monster" has to be the most apt company name out there. A large, malevolent corporation, fooling hapless and naive consumers out their cash through ruthless marketing and lawsuits.
As a business model it seems to be working quite well.

[Drubbing]

Yeah, you needed to spend more money, you're $2k short of hearing the true audio bliss that only hypermaterial can provide. However, tests are usually flawed by the fact the buyer often has an noticeable bulge in their pant region prior to plugging them in, and this can induce all sorts of bias, and not a little leakage.

[grev]

convince idiots at head-fi...

report back...!

[BusinessEvolution]

convince idiots at head-fi...

report back...!

Couldn't the people at head-fi just read Monster's product descriptions for their cables to realise they are just replacing words with the most technical works or marketing trade marks. o.O

Wow I just read up on this, people have been doing double blind tests with Monster Cables and not finding a difference with cheaper cables since 1985.

"The strategy in selling these products is, in part, to appeal to those who are looking to impress others with something unique and expensive."

[dion]

My idiotic in laws bought about $1000 of monster hdmi cables when they got their new home theater, which wasn't many I'll tell you that. Harvey Norman of course.

I even told them before they were used that I could replace them all for about $100 and to get the monsters refunded, they said no, what that saying about fools and money ?

[grev]

If cables hardly make much audible differences even with speakers, I don't know how the people at head-fi can claim the cables are making their LCD-2 sing with sunshine and daisies... Not to mention the cables with their ipod > usb interconnect is making their music sound better...

[BusinessEvolution]

If cables hardly make much audible differences even with speakers, I don't know how the people at head-fi can claim the cables are making their LCD-2 sing with sunshine and daisies... Not to mention the cables with their ipod > usb interconnect is making their music sound better...

If you were using substandard cables to begin with, you will get a noticable boost with ($10-2000), however how many people buy $5 cables to do a test after spending $500 dollars. On some models of ipods viapassing the headphone dock and outputting to a decent system will give an improvement.

"When confronted with the truth, believers do not want to hear about it. They want to remain in the magical world of fantasy where they think they can hear improvements in their wire, often arrived at by making listening tests without adequate controls or understanding of the problems involved including speaker impedance and amplifier stability. One of the prime tools in creating such a faith for the average consumer is by capitalizing on fear and ignorance as in many other things that aren’t readily apparent. There is fear that the wire currently in use is not good enough. There is ignorance because most people do not have scientific knowledge in this area and lack adequate measuring equipment to prove otherwise." (Russell, 2012)

Headfi
-Fear that aspects of current setup are inadequate (check)
-Lacking measuring equipment and/or scientific knowledge (check)

Its like the perfect storm lol. My scientific knowledge is in social science so I know about scientific method but I am still learning about the science behind electrical engineering as I come from a Psych/Org background.

Theres evidence that the cheapest cables can have big problems, mostly because of the shielding used and incorrect gauge of the wire and wrong impedance XD, was an interesting read about cables, if you have good generic shielded cables they apparently work well ($5-10).

I was reading another article, at the start of this thread I recommended not exceeding 1% of the system cost on cables, a product manager from Monster in this article recommended spending 10% on cables XD.

[BusinessEvolution]

*Bangs head on wall*

I got headfi'd

I currently have LME49720 opamps but decided to buy some LME49860 opamps after many many rave reviews about how superior they are to the 49720na's in every single way. Then just after putting in an order on ebay I come across this info:

49860NA is just a cherry picked 49720NA, its exactly the same chip, with the exact same specs, just it can handle voltage swing a bit better in the testing they did.

:*(

[Drubbing]

*Bangs head on wall*

I got headfi'd

:*(

So long as it only happened once, and wasn't big ticket, then no harm. I've been there too and got FOTM'd. Once.

[dingostolemyipod]

*Bangs head on wall*

I got headfi'd

I currently have LME49720 opamps but decided to buy some LME49860 opamps after many many rave reviews about how superior they are to the 49720na's in every single way. Then just after putting in an order on ebay I come across this info:

49860NA is just a cherry picked 49720NA, its exactly the same chip, with the exact same specs, just it can handle voltage swing a bit better in the testing they did.

:*(

people also rave about how much better the 49720 is compared to the 4562, when they're also the same chip

then ppl pay massive bucks for metal can versions over plastic packs
then people get all excited over paying extra to get B versions of opamps, as they sound a bazzillion times better than A versions, when these are just the same chip with better DC specs (irrelevant to almost all audio applications)